Reply to Mdenkers1


You can read Mdenkers1’s comment in the previous UnBlog. The assertion was that the Times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled because the Jews HAVE returned, according to his/her thinking. Mdenkers1 had some very good references you may enjoy reading and made a good point. This is my reply:

As I noted earlier, there is a lot of confusion about these events and timings, and I do not claim to have all of the answers. I am presenting information as I understand it because it is my Blog, and because it is where the Holy Spirit is leading me. But, I am not a general authority, and have no intent to define doctrine, only to discuss it. I never mean to offend or agitate. I enjoy a wholesome discussion, but I never debate.

In that light, here is my thinking about the Jews and whether or not they have actually returned to Israel, thus signaling the end of the Times of the Gentiles: There are two significant things that need to happen when in order for the Times of the Gentiles to be fulfilled. First, the Gospel actually has to be “given” to the Jews who are gathered. As of this moment, that is not possible because of the political and religious structure in Israel. They are not Christian at all, let alone ready for the gospel. The second great indicator is that the Jews who have “returned” will actually accept and embrace and believe the Gospel, which means they will accept Christ, accept the current administration of His Gospel, which is the LDS church, and will be baptized in great numbers. This hasn’t happened, and since it hasn’t occurred, the times of the Gentiles have not ended in my opinion.

Another point that I don’t personally accept is that the Gentiles have rejected the Fullness of the Gospel. In the world of Gentiles, the rejection is underway. But if you consider the “gentiles” spoke of to be the latter-day church, (as I do) then the position should be taken that there are still millions of faithful Gentile LDS, and no flagrant rejection is evident. There is also the Fullness as it pertains to the greater blessings taught in the Temple, and I do not believe there is a wholesale rejection of those as yet either.

I agree completely that we are on the cusp, the razor’s edge, of the end of the Times of the Gentiles, but I don’t personally believe it has ended yet. The gentile church still possesses all of the keys, and administers all of the ordinances, and builds all of the temples.

The confusion is fed in some part by authoritative statements (such as your fine quotes) which conflict with one another. The reason they conflict is because there truly is confusion on these points. Here is the same quote by McConkie I included in part on my Blog, which does not agree with them. His position is harmonious with the scriptures as I understand them, and hence the position of the Blog article.

The true Israelites and the true Jews believe in the true Messiah and worship his Father in spirit and in truth. And so it is that the times of the Gentiles is not yet fulfilled, and so it is that the city where our Lord was crucified shall be trodden down by Gentile unbelievers until that day of fulfillment dawns upon the earth.” (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, p.252)

But, please remember that I am not the one to solidify these things. We are just discussing them, and I thank you for your comment.

The reason I ended the Un-Blog article with a call to personal preparation is because for us personally it doesn’t matter if the Times of the Gentiles are over or not. What matters is if we have arisen to the stature of righteousness and claimed our personal place in Zion.

Brother John

© January 2012, John M. Pontius, all rights reserved. Non-commercial reproduction permitted.

About John Pontius

I am a lover of truth.
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12 Responses to Reply to Mdenkers1

  1. carol says:

    i am a single mom, i was left to raise five children…okay so what..i am not he and he is not me…we were sent here to get experience…we are not exempt from the craziness of this world…when we women take out our temple blessings they are in our maiden names…that means my journey is a personal journey…if you have the other half onboard, then your doing good, but if you don’t, we’ll just say this i haven’t found my other half yet, is it a concern, yes it is, but the greater concern is that i personally make myself worthy of being a daughter of Heavenly Father…married or not, male or female…make sure you
    yourself are a worthy child, so that you can be awarded a worthy other.
    This so bothered me…so i took it to my Heavenly Father…and yes i did get a answer… Since i am a daughter, then i will become as my Heavenly Mother one day…and who is She…She would have to be Heavenly Fathers equal…why would he have less then Himself, why wouldn’t She be His equal…i would say because She had to walk the walk and talk the talk just like He did..this is not a onesided street..get on board and do your part…if your other half is doing theirs or not…you were assigned your part to do…do you think Heavenly Mother walks behind Heavenly Father or do you think they walk together discussing and talking things over and getting a fuller view of the situation from both sides…we are the other half of the whole…lets not be lacking in our part…you made be whats holding up what you don’t know…God made male and female…one cannot be without the other…we are suppose to stay in stride with the other, so we have those things in common to talk about.
    The Laws cover all of us…individually and collectively…
    The men have their callings to do and we women have our callings to do..
    and i beleive that we individually must first be worthy of the Lords blessings, if
    we plan to continue on with our other halves…
    This is my opinion…i can’t answer for his life and he can’t answer for mine…
    and hopefully when we are called together as a couple we lived in stride with one another to get the full blessing of marriage for time and eternity…
    I don’t need to sit in the front of the bus..sitting in the back is just fine with me,
    why, because i am a child of God, and He knows i am here, and on some days that is all i get and thats okay too..why, because he gives me sufficient to get
    through each day, whether someone else acknowledges me or not…thats why
    your own personal relationship with Heavenly Father is so important..YOU LIVE AND SURVIVE ON YOUR OWN PERSONAL TESTIMONY OF YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST…just that simple, amen

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  2. Sharon Cox says:

    I typically shy away from commenting on these deep subjects because I am a babe compared to the spiritual giants on this Unblog, but I feel to share a personal revelation I had this morning as I read 2 Nephi chapters 27 through 30. When I came to the end of chapter 30, I felt uneasy and had the feeling that I had missed something important, so I turned back to chapter 27 and began reading again. When I got to verse 25 of chapter 27, I felt the distinct impression that the statement “this people” in that verse, was referring to members of the LDS Church, and from that verse all the way to the end of chapter 28, is it is talking about things that are going to be taking place within the Church. (Chapter 29 then begins a separate discussion about other gentiles (who were not part of “this people”)

    Like many, I had always thought that all these chapters were talking about those who are not members of the LDS church, so to say the least, this revelation came as quite a shock. It is hard to believe that LDS church members will apostatize to the extent of what is described in 2 Nephi 28:3-8, but nevertheless….

    I had a dream 20 years ago when I first joined the church – In this dream, someone of importance in the church (I don’t know who) had just concluded a talk during what appeared to be a general conference, and the things that he said caused a great number of church members to immediately apostatize. They began leaving rapidly and in droves and I was frantically running from person to person begging them not to leave and telling them that the church is true. I used to think that the apostates were leaving the church, but it now seems to me that what they will be leaving is the truth and the fulness of the gospel.

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    • Thank you for your opinion. I personally see the message to us personally as beginning in 2 Nephi 28:20 through the end of the chapter. Like you, I just can’t see those things in prior verses happening and hope they never will. But, beginning in verse 20, he specifically addresses Zion. Here’s the interesting thing – if you consider the church to be Zion, then this warning sends one message, which is that we should not consider “all is well” and then lapse into carnal security.

      However, if you consider that the full latter-day Zion is yet to be built, then the message is much more powerful. The reason the devil “cheateth their souls and leadeth them away carefully down to hell” is because they don’t even realize that Zion does not yet exist, and all is not well. That would be a masterful, brilliant deception, wouldn’t it.

      Thanks for your comment,

      JMP

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      • Sharon Cox says:

        I think you meant 2 Nephi 28:20 through the end of the chapter (there is no vs. 20 in chapter 29). I agree, it is frightening to think that the previous verses could be referencing us – I hope I am wrong.

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  3. patty liston says:

    Brother John. You stated in your recent answer to a question that “There is also the Fullness as it pertains to the greater blessings taught in the Temple, and I do not believe there is a wholesale rejection of those as yet either.” I do hope you are right.
    Sister Beck has recently put out a call on several LDS “mommy blogs”, for women to write questions that they would like her to address. I have spent some time reading through the hundreds that have poured in. What has shocked me the most is the deep dissatisfaction that so many young women feel with the temple sessions as now constituted. They take offense to the language, feeling it is sexist. They take offense to the priesthood, feeling it is sexist. In a nut-shell, they want change to reflect their position in the church as women. Many want a greater discussion of Heavenly Mother; feeling that this will equalize the sexes. There is more, but I do believe you get the idea.
    I was at a stake RS meeting last year when Sister Beck ended her talk by saying she would answer some questions from the audience. One woman asked Sister Beck what her concerns were as she visited LDS women around the world. Unflinchingly, Sister Beck stated that it was the sense of “entitlement” that so many women have. She then quoted a wonderful scripture (which I have lost) that identified fallen women in the last days.
    I know that there is a rising discontent amount young women. I have talked to friends around the country who have shared experiences from their own wards of women “going through the motions without any commitment”. This breaks the hearts of those of us who embrace all of the blessings of Temple and Gospel worship. We are somehow, failing our young women and mothers. I wonder what your thoughts are on this somewhat weighty matter.

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    • Dear Patty,

      To be honest, I’m afraid to get within 100 feet of that subject. I don’t know how to say anything other than the only path to exaltation is to be humble, obedient and full of the Spirit. The Lord wasn’t just talking to men in the verses that lay out the way, or in the verses that lay out the vast rewards of these simple things, or in the devastating consequences of any other path.

      Were you referring to 2 Nephi 13:16-26? It is one of the signs of the times, and is in the process of happening, as are every other evidence of the times in which we live.

      If the Spirit moves me I will engage further, but my calling is to encourage, inspire and invite, not to find fault.

      I feel your pain,

      Brother John

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  4. ken h says:

    I personally understand that we, the current and some soon to be baptized latter-day saints are the Gentiles mentioned in the BofM because our ancestors have come from the Gentile countries of Europe and Scandinavia. There will be a cleansing of the church in the very near future which will fulfill the prophecies of “the Gentiles rejecting the fullness of the gospel.” Many Gentile LDS will apostatize and leave the church. Lehi foresaw this with the tree of life vision of us in the last days.

    How Lehi’s Dream applies to the last day saints of North America.

    1 Nephi 8: 9-16, 30 -The wise virgins. These partake of all of the blessings of the gospel and are truly temple worthy and have a year or more supply of food, water, and supplies. These gather to the refuges in the rocky mountain states and other appointed gathering places in North America. These are the ones that survive the purging of the church in the near future.

    1 Nephi 8:21-23 -The tares. These have very little spiritual conviction. They started down the straight and narrow path that leads to the iron rod (joined the church) but would not give up the things of the world including their sins. These join with evil nonmembers who persecute the unwise virgins.

    1 Nephi 8:24-28 -The unwise virgins. These saints have weak testimonies and they have gone to the temple but their hearts on set on the things of the world. These are not able to gather to the refuges because they are not worthy or ready.

    1 Nephi 8:31-33 – The nonmembers. These are incited by the apostate tares to persecute the unwise virgins into denouncing their membership in the church. These help slay apostles and other faithful saints as well. But many nonmembers will flee unto Zion (in this case the church) for safety both physically and spiritually(join the church in large numbers).This is why we, as a adults in the church, have been studying the “Gospel Principles” lessons for the last two years because all of the new converts that will flood the church and they will need many of us to teach them these fundamental doctrines. We all have been preparing to do this.

    These events will fulfill the prophecies of the Gentiles rejecting the fullness of the Gospel in the last days. The Lord will then have gathered, where they need to be, the wise virgins in further preparing them to go forth soon after the cleansing of the western hemisphere (through plagues, environmental upheavals and unfortunately World War III) to AOA and unto to build the City of Zion.

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  5. K Brinkerhoff says:

    Wonderful postings all of them. I enjoy learning from everyone here in this blog I find it very fulfilling. I would like to make one comment here, and that is that the Spirit woke me up one morning early up out of my sleep and spoke to me saying that, “There would come an ‘abandonment’ of Christ” unquote. I found the word ‘abandonment’ to be very telling. I felt the spirit direct my understanding to that of ‘If we are not truly converted, and have testimony only, then we would abandon also.’ To this I felt the spirit lead my mind to that of the apostle Peter, in that after all that he had experienced in a very intimate and personal way with the savior, including walking on the water, he still denied the Lord 3 times because as the Savior put it, he was not yet converted. The Spirit said to me that we all will be like Peter, having done may wonderful things with our priesthood, and have wonderful testimonies that are strong in claiming that we would never deny the church or our Lord, but that in the end we will do what Peter had done, IF we are not truly converted.

    I believe that the time is coming where this ‘abandonment’ will happen. What will cause it to happen? I do not know? My mind seems to look at the history of Kirtland Ohio and what transpired there (money problems among others) for an idea of how that might happen in our day, but I do not know?

    Perhaps this abandonment will signal the end of the times of the Gentiles.

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  6. John H. Schoppe says:

    What is your opinion of Duane S. Crowther’s book, Prophecy – Key to the Future? I believe that he does a very good job of providing references, and documentation in Chapter 2 entitled, “Missionary Work Among the Gentiles”. Brother Crowther states that, “Fulfilling of the times of the Gentiles – The ending of the missionary labor to the Gentiles because of their wickedness and refusal to accept the Gospel. When this event takes place, the second missionary period will begin, in which the gospel will be carried to those of the house of Israel”. Because the fulfilling of the times of the Gentiles is such an important event in the chronology of the future, in that it will trigger the beginning of the wars of complete destruction, judgments being poured out on the world, etc., it is important to understand, but I believe that there is still much missionary work to be done among the gentiles. So barring any world events that require all the missionaries to be called home by the Brethren, thereby ending the times of the Gentiles, I believe that it is still in progress. Remember Alma the younger was preaching that the time for the birth of Christ was near 82 years before the event.

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  7. Lisa says:

    Quoting from your response: ” But if you consider the “gentiles” spoke of to be the latter-day church, (as I do) then the position should be taken that there are still millions of faithful Gentile LDS, and no flagrant rejection is evident. There is also the Fullness as it pertains to the greater blessings taught in the Temple, and I do not believe there is a wholesale rejection of those as yet either.”

    Can you please share some references that tell us it is the church members that are going to reject the gospel? I have understood it more as a general rejection by the gentiles of the world (as well by those who only marginally accept and live the doctrines, of course). I do believe there will be a great sifting in The Church, and expect there will be those who will not continue, but are you saying when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled there will not be millions of faithful LDS people? I have not seen information that supports this line of thinking. Could you please share some information about where this comes from?

    I am confused also by the contradiction that when people join the church they become adopted into the House of Israel (if they are not of that lineage already). Are they not then truly of the House of Isreal as if they had been born in? How are they still gentiles? If my patriarchal blessing says that I am of the loins of Ephraim am I only part Israel? Is it a weak connection? Am I really gentile even though the only one who knows has declared I am of israel? These things are confusing to me when I try to understand the participants in the time of the gentiles. Thanks for helping me with this.

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